| By Befbever on Saturday, October 26, 2002 - 07:08 am: |
As of today, Hansie's the proud owner of the first TNT system on the European continent. We bolted it on today and I'm sure that once he's home, he'll give you his impressions on its performance.
Meanwhile, here are some piccies: 
As a note, Hansie opted for the Renegade can hangers as he has no need for pillion footrests. I think these look better! 
| By Hansie on Saturday, October 26, 2002 - 08:18 am: |
First impression :
OH MY GOD ! WE CREATED A MONSTER!!
(with TNT in his @ss)
Not fully tested(rain
) but its very , very impressive. Very smooth : 2000rpm is 6th no problemo.Much more punch on all rpm's , great trottlerespons and the best looks and music arround! It IS a great improvement to the slipons.Start saving!
Thanx to Bef and Wim for the help , even learned what "upper" stands for.
Hansie
| By Befbever on Saturday, October 26, 2002 - 08:35 am: |
Glad you made it home okay, Hansie! 
So it works does it?
Now as for getting that off your face, never mind. Suit you Sir!
| By Befbever on Saturday, October 26, 2002 - 08:57 am: |
Oh btw, any Technoflex shock owners with little room to spare at the rear header wondering if the TNT header will fit with your shock?
Forget it! I think even mine will be a tight fit, so best get on the blower and ask for the new reservoir part. Sorry guys.
| By Exdukenut on Saturday, October 26, 2002 - 08:16 pm: |
How come they are showing bronze in colour, and are brand new, underneath the bike?
| By Befbever on Sunday, October 27, 2002 - 01:18 am: |
Just one run will discolour them. The middle section had been tested on Charlie's bike and wasn't re-polished due to lack of time.
It wouldn't have mattered if they had been: when Hansie left, both headers had that same colour too. If you look at the last pic, when the bike had been fine-tuned, you see the front header has also changed colour. Doesn't make it any slower tho!
If you're the clean kind of guy, you could always take the system off after a wash and polish it until it's white again.
This may sound stupid but I actually know a guy who does that! And yes, he's Dutch as well. 
But to be fair, he's as nice a guy as Hansie turned out to be. Twas a privilege to meet you, TNT Boy! 
| By Litre1 on Sunday, October 27, 2002 - 02:46 pm: |
If you want a near-maintenance free finish, I would suggest getting a jet hot coating applied to the pipes. It leaves a matte aluminum finish, and it doesn't discolor. I've had it on pipes in the past, and I am thinking about it done for my Falco. Cost is usually $100-$140, and really is worth it! Looks a lot better than chrome IMO.
| By Dave on Sunday, October 27, 2002 - 04:40 pm: |
Slllurp!
Cheers for photos Bef. Looks like you've got a clamp bolt facing outwards in one pic for demo and turned away in the next
Hansie, no pillion pegs, no grabrail, no seat hump?
How easy was it pulling off the old? I've seen the rear header off but thinking about the amount of crud the front picks up, that might have been a different case? I still get angry thinking about the studs in that xj9 head 
Clean, in London?
| By Exdukenut on Sunday, October 27, 2002 - 04:48 pm: |
I'm certainly not "analy retentitive" enough to go to that much bother to polish headers, but it looks like to me, that the stainless material is thinner walled compared to a lot of other exhaust manufacturers out there.
My stainless headers on my old duke heat up, and go a nice colour of blue and gold, but that was after some 3000kms, not after the first heat cycle.
Just MHO though.
They do look sweet though. Congrats Hansie.
I'd be interested to hear how long it took to do as well, (for some future time, possibly)! No Ex, "Just say to yourself you can't spend any more money at this point in time".
| By Befbever on Sunday, October 27, 2002 - 08:23 pm: |
Since I did most of the work on the exhaust, I can tell you that it's really easy to take the old system off if you have the proper tools, ie lots of extension rods on your spanner. Putting the new system on requires Wim's know-how as he's done this plenty of times. I'm sure we could write something up for future clients. Jorge?
Good call on the clamp, Dave. The pic was shot before Wim did the final tightening. Talk about being anal!
The discolouring, well, the stock system also does that so is it worth talking about it? I think not. Maybe if we all get that Akra titanium system it wouldn't be an issue.
| By Befbever on Monday, October 28, 2002 - 05:06 am: |
About the time it took: granted, we did it with the bike on a bench so we had perfect working conditions, but 1 hour should be enough. You need a small 13 mm socket spanner to reach the front header nuts once the new system is on.
A proper universal joint is a must IMHO.
A rubber hammer is quite handy too.
Say to yourself: "Yes, Ex, you do need to spend this amount of money at this time!"
Look at Hansie's and you know it makes sense.
| By Mmax on Monday, October 28, 2002 - 07:53 am: |
Hi, by looking on the pictures I must say it looks really cool and probably works too, I just like to ask you a few questions:
1) does the left side pipe have the same bend as the stock one / for the side stand clearance/.
2) is there any particular reason, that pipe of the rear cylinder has to go to the left side of the bike - would it not be easier to manufacture/ better gas flow/ if the rear cylinder pipe goes on the right side and the front cylinder pipe on the left.
| By Powermaster on Monday, October 28, 2002 - 09:30 am: |
1-no
2-no
it would make no difference, the system is a 1 into 1 not a 2 into 1 into 2 as the original and all the others for the Milles.
Don't be surprised if you see different systems in different bikes. Like women, I tend to have my moods Time of the month, get it?
Point taken though
| By Hansie on Monday, October 28, 2002 - 10:42 am: |
Due the lack of frends I dont need a pilion.
I used the pilionseat and not my humpy to store some luggage.
Still a very happy man here!
Hansie
| By Befbever on Monday, October 28, 2002 - 10:56 am: |
Mmax, 'probably works too'? You should check out the dyno's one the Renegade site. Oops, sorry, it's this one.
Powermaster, shut up about Mille's, this is a Falco board!
| By Powermaster on Monday, October 28, 2002 - 12:39 pm: |
I don't care Milles are sexier 
Bed time, night
| By Befbever on Tuesday, October 29, 2002 - 11:04 am: |
Yeah, Mille's are as sexy as sexy girls in a sexy swimsuit competing in a 'sexiest girl in sexy swimsuit' contest.
Trouble is, you don't see too many of them this wintertime.
| By Geo on Tuesday, October 29, 2002 - 11:36 am: |
Befbeaver whined:
>> Mille's are as sexy as sexy girls in a sexy swimsui......Trouble is, you don't see too many of them this wintertime.>>
You don't live in South Florida do you?
Plenty of those here -and wearing a lot LESS than tiny bikinis.
Nya nya nya
| By Befbever on Tuesday, October 29, 2002 - 11:42 am: |
Plenty of what? Old age pensioners?
On their Mille's?
Ooh I'm getting a picture, AAAAAAAAAHHHH!!!!!
| By Geo on Tuesday, October 29, 2002 - 11:52 am: |
Nah, bad news for your dark little soul:
there's more babes here than in NY, Paris or LA.
and they're total exhibitionists too.
They make MCN's brolly girls look like old hags.
Happy pommes frites to you!!
Nya nya
| By Hansie on Wednesday, October 30, 2002 - 10:33 am: |
Short story of today:
There is a guy , sitting on his Duc 996 on full trottle, mumbling : what the hell was that fast , red thing????Poor guy , never had a chance!
Hansie
| By Befbever on Saturday, November 02, 2002 - 04:23 am: |
Ducati 996's are too easy a target, TNT Boy. Even I can take 'em on.
I like GSX-R 750's, Fireplaces, R1's:
'WTF? That's a bloody sports-tourer! What's wrong with my engine? ' as they continue on their way, totally flabbergasted and keeping very quiet about the incident when they next visit their pub.
Btw, bump!
| By Hansie on Monday, November 04, 2002 - 10:52 am: |
| By Hansie on Monday, November 04, 2002 - 11:04 am: |
After 600 dry km this week the header changed color a bit , its blue flamed
Believe it or not , the TNT makes it LESS wheely sensitive!!!Power is more smooth so its easier to keep the front wheel close to mother earth.Offcourse if you want.....
More? 
Pictures or tree's?
| By Cplus on Monday, November 04, 2002 - 11:44 am: |
Hansie -- it looks like there's less than 1mm between the header and shock. Mighty tight...
| By Befbever on Monday, November 04, 2002 - 11:52 am: |
No, that's just an illusion. There's plenty of room for his Mille shock. He even has room to put his Big Feet now!
| By Iedoubleyou on Monday, November 04, 2002 - 12:57 pm: |
Don't tell me Hans that you actualy washed the bike, did you
| By Hansie on Monday, November 04, 2002 - 01:08 pm: |
Quote:Don't tell me Hans that you actualy washed the bike, did you
| By Hansie on Monday, November 04, 2002 - 01:08 pm: |
Quote:Don't tell me Hans that you actualy washed the bike, did you
| By Powermaster on Tuesday, November 05, 2002 - 01:55 am: |
CPLUS, if I did not trust the "Fitters" I would agree with you, too. But as Beff said, it's an illusion as there is plenty room
| By Crmc33 on Tuesday, November 05, 2002 - 05:47 am: |
Thats Nice That is.
Now I know what TNT stands for!
| By Powermaster on Tuesday, November 05, 2002 - 07:36 am: |
Crm33, I am not going to fall for that one but I bet Mayo man will
Btw here is something for those living outside the UK here
| By Mr_Venjer on Tuesday, November 05, 2002 - 08:03 am: |
Jorge, does this not make it seem as though the figures you get are assisted/false ? I read the report and wondered why you would endorse the printing of this test. To me the results make it look like you lift the tank to get greater results. For an uninitiated person they could form the opinion that the power gains are false.
Someone enlighten me, have I missed something ?
Kevin
| By Befbever on Tuesday, November 05, 2002 - 12:16 pm: |
Quote:For an uninitiated person they could form the opinion that the power gains are false
| By Powermaster on Tuesday, November 05, 2002 - 12:37 pm: |
On the contrary, Mr Venjer, it only enforces what I have been debating all this time, until you do tests with some sort of air aid or extra volume you end up never knowing what is on the other side. May I remind you that I did the same tests on that Mille as I have done on yours and that the Reporter has all the tests, three of them were done exactly to aid the argument,(one, not assisted by any fans) here the results were identical to the other dyno, (another with the fans at normal speed) and another with full blast fans and the tank lifted by 3 inches, this last test, as you well know, is to show 2 things.
1-The bike's performance will be better with a NON sealed tank.
2-Simply by lifting the tank and allowing better/more air intake, the performance betters.
The last simply shows what can and happens at top end.
Other tests were done without the airkit and one of them was to show the differences in exhaust making.
In these tests, exhausts were tested with and without the fans yet the end results were identical.
The same tests were done with our exhausts and differences were seen. Why?
This was simply to show that when the product is manufactured with velocity in mind, it can only go so far, if meanwhile volume is added, the product will choke as it's existing size, can not cope.(top end)
Yet if you construct the product to cope with extra volume but only velocity is available, the results can only be proven when side by side on a road test, Or on a dyno with extra air volume.( ram air?)
Please read the article again and notice what the reporter says.
" But the way the bike pulls like a mad thing at faster road speeds are handy"
Why, How?
"the top end increase that the Renegade dyno picked up is also difficult to notice"
Let's not forget that top end is dictated by gearing not power, but wait.
"but there is no question that the bike accelerates harder and is more capable of maintaining higher speeds"
The only way the bike will be able accelerate harder and maintain such higher speeds can only be by the aid of torque and horse power.
Mr Venjer I am only giving you this explanation because I know how much you believe and defend our name, however and this is a big however that we must not forget.
Renegade guaranties a mid range power of 5 to 7 bhp with the Airkit.
No one yet has contradicted such guaranties.
What we make, the results are ALWAYS available in our site. This opens a big door for criticism or situations like this to arise, but I am yet to see anyone discredit us with tests done on the same make of machine.
Best Regards
Jorge
| By Befbever on Tuesday, November 05, 2002 - 01:09 pm: |
Okay I went. Feeling much lighter now. 
The part I think Mr_Venjer is on about:
Quote:It must be said that the runs
| By Powermaster on Tuesday, November 05, 2002 - 02:08 pm: |
Quote:An unfortunate choice of words, that's all. Nobody's perfect, not even journo's
| By Dave on Tuesday, November 05, 2002 - 03:59 pm: |
"but there is no question that the bike accelerates harder and is more capable of maintaining higher speeds"
as if that needs repeating...
| By Mr_Venjer on Wednesday, November 06, 2002 - 02:33 am: |
You all miss the point. This is an article in a magazine right ?! So someone reading this article will think that Your figures are not true figures. I did not see anywhere that it said the raising of the tank was done purely as a test. For example:
Quote - "it must be said that the runs were conducted with the fuel tank slightly raised" etc and "Renegade say this helps simulate higher road speeds"
Now, because I have seen this test and I know the point you are trying to prove, I understand it completely. But anyone reading the review will think that you are trying to pull a fast one - "Renegade say it helps simulate higher speed"
Next, it says on BSD's dyno (without the extra air) results were almost as good. This can be taken as the extra air made Rene's results higher so, again, it looks like your figures are false.
Lastly it says that "on this evidence Rene's dyno appears to be assisted by the extra airflow". Is this not blatantly telling the reader that Rene's figures are false ???
The review should have stated that the figures were experimental. It does say that you did runs without air and with normal air but this does not come across in the review. The way it is worded makes it look like you raising the tank and doing dyno runs is the norm and people will leave Renegade with inflated figures because, when tested under normal environments elsewhere, the figures will be lower.
I think this is the reason why the argument on the EZboard erupted. I never saw this review but the guy that posted had. Although he kind of retracted his statement he was exactly right because what he says you do - you actually did do in this poorly worded review.
Kevin
I
| By Powermaster on Wednesday, November 06, 2002 - 05:27 am: |
Kevin, no one missed the point and we understand perfectly what your post was about. I also appreciate your concern about the wording in how the article is presented and the "mislay" that it can cause. However I have to respect the writer and the controversial that he intended or not with his write up.
"Renegade say this helps simulate higher road speeds" Exactly what it means, "simulate" noticed the graph's caption? "fatter midrange, whichever way you look at it..."
"Next, it says on BSD's dyno (without the extra air) results were almost as good,"
"This can be taken as the extra air made Rene's results higher so, again, it looks like your figures are false."
or it can mean, had the DSD dyno been equipped with extra air the results would be identical (all about interpretation)
"on this evidence Rene's dyno appears to be assisted by the extra airflow".
Yes, the Rene dyno, IS assisted by air fans, so are ALL Fuchs dyno's see here
"when tested under normal environments" Extra air is available.
"I think this is the reason why the argument on the EZboard erupted."
The poster on the Ezboard jumped in and erupted an argument picking up on the above points?
Like the writer (who knew the full story) I have to respect the poster's statement.
Reading his/hers post I can only presume that if the poster was realistically interested/concerned in our product he/she would have contacted us directly, questioning the article's review?
As no one else had read the article (at the time)was a bit difficult for any of you to know what it was about.
Don't take me wrong as I know you mean well, the article is there for all to read and make their own opinion, however I believe that the "writer's verdict" settles any misinterpretations.
| By Mr_Venjer on Wednesday, November 06, 2002 - 06:38 am: |
I don't know Jorge. I am not knocking the guy's article at all. He has simply written what he saw.
I read the article and even to me it sounded fishy. To assume/expect anyone interested in the product to then phone Renegade for an explanation I think is naive to say the least. There are other products out there giving similar performance that don't have the stigma of contraversy attached. Why would I phone you ? I'd simply buy the other product.
A lot of us form our opinions from what we read on the web and magazines and its so easy to disregard a product because others have slagged it off. I feel this article will/has created doubts in some people's mind about the integrity of the company and its product due to what will only be a misunderstanding - easily rectified if only the wording had stressed certain things in a clearer way.
The fat midrange curve means nothing to me if I thought the figures were inflated because of the lifted fuel tank. I could easily say "it is a fat midrange curve due to him lifting the tank and directing the air into the ...". Fair enough if all Fuch's dynos use fans than so be it. But the writer spoke of extra air. Is this in addition to the fans you use ? Even I was confused. If all Fuch's dynos have air then why do other people harp on about the fact that the other type of dyno machine has fans too (EZboard argument)?
I know the guy says that he found the performance impressive and its money well spent. I'm not after an environment where everyone just agrees all the time. In essence though, what Keabs posted(EZboard poster) was 100% accurate in what he wrote. Does that not horrify you that this opion was formed as a result of that article ? How many others are thinking the same thing ?
Regards
Kevin
Kevin
| By Crmc33 on Wednesday, November 06, 2002 - 07:44 am: |
I dont understand what your getting at Kevin, the writer didnt mention the words 'magic' and 'button' anywhere near each other!
I think the article is a little bit confusing but worthwhile all the same. Who reads the scabby writing in the bike mags these days anyway? I just buy it for the breasts and free vids.
| By Dave on Wednesday, November 06, 2002 - 07:51 am: |
Kevin, when I read that at first I thought exactly the same, but then I thought, by itself maybe but he's actually posted it on his own site - if I were 'uninitiated to the family' then I'd have thought well this chap's obviously not afraid to face critisism, and indeed rather than hiding from it, he's actually giving people the oportunity to see all the facts, all the point of views. This fact alone, never mind the praise elsewhere thats easy to come accross (because general consensus seems to be that they are quality products), this would encourage me that I'm dealing with someone with integrity and confidence in his product!
| By Mr_Venjer on Wednesday, November 06, 2002 - 09:14 am: |
Mmmmm, legs and breasts .........
Kevin
| By Powermaster on Wednesday, November 06, 2002 - 09:28 am: |
Kevin, I am trying to understand what is it that you do not understand, I have just about explained all to the best of my knowledge, yet you don't seem to get my explanation, but as a client and a friend I will once again do my best to answer your comments.
"He has simply written what he saw."
Wrong, he spent 8 hours with me and saw many other things, that does not mean that he had to write about it, I wished
He could have shown only the charts from the other dyno and we would not be having this conversation, it was me who asked him to show our dyno tests, for the reasons given 2 posts ago (more later)
"To assume/expect anyone interested in the product to then phone Renegade for an explanation I think is naive to say the least."
Dave has already answered this one.
"There are other products out there giving similar performance" where? I keep searching.
"I'd simply buy the other product."
Many others do and no questions are asked, because there are no answers. Try and ask them yourself?
"A lot of us form our opinions from what we read on the web and magazines and its so easy to disregard a product because others have slagged it off."
I don't believe you said that.
"I feel this article will/has created doubts in some people's mind about the integrity of the company and its product due to what will only be a misunderstanding - easily rectified if only the wording had stressed certain things in a clearer way."
I disagree as I feel that doubts can be positive, making people more inquisitive and therefore be better informed.
"The fat midrange curve means nothing to me if I thought the figures were inflated because of the lifted fuel tank. I could easily say "it is a fat midrange curve due to him lifting the tank and directing the air into the ...".
Here is where the problem starts, the interpretation of the wording, it says, "fatter midrange, whichever way you look at it...." be it on our dyno or any other as the graphs shows.
" Fair enough if all Fuch's dynos use fans than so be it. But the writer spoke of extra air. Is this in addition to the fans you use?"
Yes they all do, the writer was not familiar with the fuchs hence the wording "extra air"
"If all Fuch's dynos have air then why do other people harp on about the fact that the other type of dyno machine has fans too"
No they don't, unless added on as extra and on those that may have, the results would be near identical to our dyno.
"I know the guy says that he found the performance impressive and its money well spent."
This should have been a good enough reason.
"what Keabs posted(EZboard poster) was 100% accurate in what he wrote."
If that is the way you still feel about it after reading the article yourself, nothing I can add will satisfy.
"Does that not horrify you that his option was formed as a result of that article ? How many others are thinking the same thing ?"
Kevin as much as I want to answer this one I would rather you figure it for yourself, a bit of homework will do the trick
Best regards,
| By Powermaster on Wednesday, November 06, 2002 - 09:31 am: |
| By Powermaster on Wednesday, November 06, 2002 - 09:40 am: |
Just for you Kevin
Green no fans
Red Fans on
Blue fans at full blast
Notice that like on the other dyno, the assisted fans do not alter the "fatter midrange"
And the changes in the top end, due to the assisted fans, are what we expect you should get hence "capable of maintaining higher speeds"
| By Mental_Trev on Wednesday, November 06, 2002 - 11:27 am: |
Bloody hell, Jorge - how long did it take you to type ALL that?!
Your fingers must be worn down to stumps!!!
Your spelling's improving, though!
| By Befbever on Wednesday, November 06, 2002 - 11:32 am: |
Hiya Trev!
Would you kindly explain the word 'derail' to Jorge?
| By Mental_Trev on Wednesday, November 06, 2002 - 03:38 pm: |
Nope - would YOU?!!!
| By Dave on Wednesday, November 06, 2002 - 04:38 pm: |
picture him at computer with lathe coolant feed redirected onto keyboard
| By Mr_Venjer on Thursday, November 07, 2002 - 03:48 am: |
Well, Jorge, you are special guy ! I cannot see any other company leaving themselves open to be shot at like Renegade has in this article. Its all well and good thinking people are intelligent enough or curious enough to go out and find the answers for themselves but I doubt this happens that often.
I also kind of disagree that negative exposure can be positive. I agree if it creates healthy debate and positive things come out but all too often they do not. But this is just my opinion.
At the end of the day more people will go out and buy Renegade products and this is good, but how many of these anti Renegade debates must we read about in forums ? I never see it happen to other manufacturers ......
Best wishes
Kevin
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