Braking Technique?

Aprilia RiderSite (Riders Site) - The independent & international community website for Aprilia motorcycle riders with chat, discussion forums and much more: Falco SL1000: Braking Technique?
By Richandall on Monday, October 21, 2002 - 02:48 am:  View Richandall's Profile Search for other posts by Richandall Edit this post

Happened before, happened again yesterday, except instead of rustic hedgerows it was a prospective closeup and personal against some rather poor taste in peeling bumper stickers. No brake lights, indicators that dimmed when the should flash. I could go on but then the driver's probably a tree-dwelling ganderbanger who shoots endangered species so why bother.

Question is, why would the back wheel hop and skid so, and does it matter anyway? Could it be from overbraking rear/underbraking front/both? Would adjustment of my Mille Sachs rear help (eg to allow more vertical movement under deceleration)? What tells you when you're approaching maximum safe braking in a straight line/good dry level etc conditions?

Novice questions, but I haven't had the crash experience to work this out for myself. Thought the hard men out there might like to share some of theirs.

- Rich  

By Befbever on Monday, October 21, 2002 - 03:35 am:  View Befbever's Profile Search for other posts by Befbever Edit this post


Preventing the rear wheel from hopping and skidding is quite easy: shift down at lower revs. Don't rely too much on the slipper clutch, especially on the road. The Falco has plenty of grunt should you end up in low revs when exiting the corner.

By stiffening the front (higher compression, more preload) you can minimize the weight-shifting so the rear wheel doesn't rise so much. But you need wheel travel at the front too so it's always a compromise.
The sag in the rear shock may need to be adjusted to make up for any shortage of wheel travel. I'm not an expert on that.

The experts use the rear brake to stabilize the bike when braking hard but I wouldn't advize it if you're not an expert - same goes for me btw. Although I was quite good at that on the minimoto, but it doesn't have any suspension. Hey, you could always take that up!

The brakes themselves are a main cause for overbraking IMHO. They don't offer the feel they should and that's why one tends to brake not hard enough/too hard on many occasions. The trick is too start gently-ish and brake harder instantly. Then letting go of the brake gently mid-corner and get on the gas immediately. Sounds easy eh?

For the second time now, one of my brake caliper pistons is sticking. This makes the bike sit up when releasing the brake and makes for 'interesting' corner entries. And btw I cannot believe I'm the only one with this problem. I think a lot of people don't even feel it.

Don't use the rear brake Rich. It's good for wintery conditions but it'll confuse you if you're new to biking. You don't need it anyway. 

By Richandall on Monday, October 21, 2002 - 03:47 am:  View Richandall's Profile Search for other posts by Richandall Edit this post

Thanks Bef - best braking advice I ever had. Can't wait for another poxy little toe-rag to come at me backwards so I can try it out.

Hope the toe-rags following me concentrate when I'm practising flying stoppies.

- Rich  

By Geo on Monday, October 21, 2002 - 06:02 am:  View Geo's Profile Search for other posts by Geo Edit this post

Think of hopping as a number of mini-stoppies, not unusual when you reach max deccel.
Like Bef said adjusting the suspension could help reduce it but without knowing how your suspension is set up...who knows.
If you scoot your weight back during stops (or at least brace your knees so as not to slide forward) it should help you keep the rear planted.
Where I don't agree with Bef is about the rear brake. Learn to use it a split second before you hit the front binders and you'll have better control -and your pillion will love you for it!
It's easier to modulate than using the engine to slow down, just stay off the rear brake while you're leaned over until you get used to it.
BTW I'm not an expert, just an old git.  

By Befbever on Monday, October 21, 2002 - 09:48 am:  View Befbever's Profile Search for other posts by Befbever Edit this post


Pillion? What's a pillion doing on a Falco?
J/K, I actually use 80% rear brake and 20% front brake whenever someone's brave enough to jump on the back. But since Rich is somewhat new to biking, I thought too much confusion wasn't good for him.

It isn't for me either!
 

By Geo on Monday, October 21, 2002 - 10:46 am:  View Geo's Profile Search for other posts by Geo Edit this post

No pillion???
My wife is still mad at me for not getting the Falco instead of the RSV!
To tell the truth in a real "panic" stop I seldom find the time to hit the rear brake first, still it is a skill worth working on (especially for a newbie).  

By Oldgit on Monday, October 21, 2002 - 12:49 pm:  View Oldgit's Profile Search for other posts by Oldgit Edit this post

Advice from another old git, As already said badly set up suspension can make the bike hope around at the rear, the falco has excellent engine braking if your using the right gear, to firm a prod on the rear brake can have the bikes rear catching the front, if this happens to you under heavy braking don't just take your foot off, or the resulting high side could have you off.
I would say carry out most of your braking with the front brake and use your rear for low speed manoeuvers. 

By Dave on Monday, October 21, 2002 - 04:09 pm:  View Dave's Profile Search for other posts by Dave Edit this post

Had the rear brake loose this weekend engine braking only! Front completely compressed too - 1st time it happened! Found myself having to give the throttle major twists to get the revs up enough to cut it out.

The slipping all happened very smoothly, down to a shock that works, even if it doesn't fit at the moment  

By Crmc33 on Monday, October 21, 2002 - 11:33 pm:  View Crmc33's Profile Search for other posts by Crmc33 Edit this post

For general dry wevver use I dont use the rear brake apart from at low speeds where I use the rear only a lot of the time.
For wet wevver use I try to use 50/50 front and rear.
For track/fast road use I use a bit of rear brake first and then use the front very hard, and let the brakes off gradually as I enter the corner so as not to upset the suspension too much. This seems to work quite well altho I never entering corners side-on like Rossi!

The name of the game is practice braking and get a feel for the way your bike/tyres/suspension behaves during braking. One bike setup is different to another 

By Befbever on Tuesday, October 22, 2002 - 12:46 am:  View Befbever's Profile Search for other posts by Befbever Edit this post


Crmc33,
is it true the Germans don't have a word for 'fluffy'?


Just thought derailment has been long overdue 

By Crmc33 on Tuesday, October 22, 2002 - 02:07 am:  View Crmc33's Profile Search for other posts by Crmc33 Edit this post

my translator has said straehig is the nearest translation. I thinks this means furry tho, as in furry muff

Is that answer furry muff for you?

Is there a Belgian word for time waster?...or web space waster? 

By Befbever on Tuesday, October 22, 2002 - 02:16 am:  View Befbever's Profile Search for other posts by Befbever Edit this post


Are you kidding? There isn't even a Belgian word for Befbever.

Meanwhile, here's a nice quote:

Edmund:
Baldrick, have you no idea what irony is?

Baldrick:
Yeah, it's like goldy & bronzy, only it's made of iron.

 

By Geo on Tuesday, October 22, 2002 - 07:05 am:  View Geo's Profile Search for other posts by Geo Edit this post

CrmC33 posted:
"For track/fast road use I use a bit of rear brake first and then use the front"

I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one, I started to think that all those years I've been doing it all wrong!
I wish that I was more consistent but 30 years and a few gazillion miles later truth is that I tend to get sloppy.  

By Dave on Tuesday, October 22, 2002 - 07:55 am:  View Dave's Profile Search for other posts by Dave Edit this post

Geo, I did use both up to my Fazer6 days and started relying on the front more 'cause they were so dam good! On the Falco, with the cast disks and braid, the weak back becomes pointless unless your in flat out mode ie the track and v fast road (just mho) at which point a lot more skill comes into it. I'd like to learn to use the back to scrub-off when I'm going in too hot (cause I do), but I've more to learn first. End of the day, whatever lights yer candle providing its safe

As for wet - and pillion, which I rarely do, couldn't agree more. Touching the back first stablises things as you hit the front and keeps it stable on slippy shit. Dispatching in London through winter teaches you keen usage of anchors in the wet!

But then its a question of conditions - Bef, hows them wet stoppies doing  

By Befbever on Tuesday, October 22, 2002 - 08:07 am:  View Befbever's Profile Search for other posts by Befbever Edit this post


I can't imagine how you fella's are using the back brake first, really. That just means you're braking too early 'coz I don't have time for that. Not even in the wet!

Hm, wet stoppies eh? Shouldn't be a problem with these BT012's. But forgive me if I don't try that one. I may need my nuts later in life.  

By Geo on Tuesday, October 22, 2002 - 08:34 am:  View Geo's Profile Search for other posts by Geo Edit this post

I happen to think that max braking (especially instant max )is often a lot less important than a better controlled one.

I dunno but it seems to me that on the road earlier braking = less braking
later braking = more braking and I'm always the slow one in but often the fast one out....but what do I know, I'm no racing demi-god!

click here

That "rear brakes are useless" philosophy is always adopted by the yung'ones that have never known anything but excellent twin-discs set ups.
A euro rag did a test of the top sportbikes using front only and then front and back.
Coming from high speeds, using both shortened the braking distances by 10-15 feet. I think that even some of testers were surprised as they only use the front ones regularly.
Even seen a WSBK come to full stop without crashing (other than in the pits)?
I haven't.
Now if only my riding was as good as my b.s...... 

By Befbever on Tuesday, October 22, 2002 - 11:38 am:  View Befbever's Profile Search for other posts by Befbever Edit this post


You know what Geo? Since all this talk about using the rear brake a split second before the front anchors....I'm making a resolution here and now to start doing that from tomorrow on.

Since it doesn't seem to stop raining, this is as good a time as any!  

By Adrian on Tuesday, October 22, 2002 - 11:41 am:  View Adrian's Profile Search for other posts by Adrian Edit this post

My knowledge of this is mainly academic, but here I go... Rich, it seems that in particular you are asking about emergency stopping (which incidentally is analogous to extreme late braking on the track in many ways). I agree that rear should be used initially or in conjunction with the front brake. The difficulty is that as the bike slows down weight is transferred from rear to front so if you keep the initial high pressure on the rear brake it will skid as this weight transfer takes place. Also, front brake should be the main concern anyway since if you miss the brief window of opportunity for the rear brake to do its initial business the braking will all be accomplished with the front brake anyway. This said, 1) suspension setup and good tires are important, and 2) body positioning is also very important. Along with clamping in with your knees, keeping your forearms and elbows down near the tank and relatively relaxed greatly aids in the reduction of weight transfer to the front. Keith Code has a nice diagram of this in his books. 3) Along with body positioning, I recently realized (the hard way) that riding with my ball of the foot back on the pegs instead of over the brake lever shaved off the split second time needed to use the rear brake in an emergency.
Regards  

By Geo on Tuesday, October 22, 2002 - 01:26 pm:  View Geo's Profile Search for other posts by Geo Edit this post

Well said Adrian!
I ride with the heel against the peg and the brake lever adjusted high. By the time I shut off the throttle the rear is at work...usually.
The front binders on the 01 Mille are so excellent that I get sloppy -like when I got caught off guard, did a one finger stoppie and ended up on my butt.  

By Dave on Tuesday, October 22, 2002 - 01:59 pm:  View Dave's Profile Search for other posts by Dave Edit this post


Quote:

Geo, I did use both up to my Fazer6 days and started relying on the front more 'cause they were so dam good!



Didn't you notice the "I did use both up to" part?


Quote:

That "rear brakes are useless" philosophy is always adopted by the yung'ones that have never known anything but excellent twin-discs set ups.




click here

do I still constitute a young'un?

I thought we were here to share rather than scoff? And did I say anywhere that that was the correct way to do it?

Anyway, just found out me front pads are stuck to the disks, where's me wd40... 

By Dave on Tuesday, October 22, 2002 - 02:02 pm:  View Dave's Profile Search for other posts by Dave Edit this post

In the unlikely event that someone takes that last comment seriously, putting wd40 near brakes would be a very bad idea...  

By Geo on Tuesday, October 22, 2002 - 03:42 pm:  View Geo's Profile Search for other posts by Geo Edit this post

Well Dave yes I did notice that part about "used it up to" but to tell the truth I was really answering to Bef, not you !
So that wasn't a scoff, right.......but this is:
*You're ugly too*

ps yes 37 is a young one, why you could be my son ....<shudder>
pps note to self, gotta use more emoticons.... 

By Twowheels78 on Tuesday, October 22, 2002 - 04:02 pm:  View Twowheels78's Profile Search for other posts by Twowheels78 Edit this post

Dave, I think I have the title of young'un, 24.

I use a combination of both front and rear, mostly front but I do use the rear as well. I don't understand why everybody says the rear is crap. Maybe it's your setup? What is everybody running? I've got braided lines front and rear, EBC's in front stock in rear.

I'm agree with Adrian...suspension setup and tires make a huge difference but technique has a big impact as well. Rich - if you are going to use the rear don't use it in conjunction with engine braking. That will make it that much easier to lock up the rear especially as the weight transfers to the front. One other thing you may want to consider is blipping the throttle as you let the clutch out on downshifts. Not only does it sound cool but it helps match road and engine speed to prevent the dreaded rear wheel hop. In lieu of blipping the throttle you could also learn to finesse the clutch when letting it out, don't just let it snap, let it slip just like you do when taking off.

Just my two cents...all I can tell you is what I do. I use a combination of all of the above techniques depending on the situation. I know the slipper clutch is there because of a couple of missed shifts but I've rarely if ever had it engage in normal riding. And it's not because I'm slow  

By Twowheels78 on Tuesday, October 22, 2002 - 04:19 pm:  View Twowheels78's Profile Search for other posts by Twowheels78 Edit this post

Holy shit if 37 is young what does that make me

Rich - on second thought what you describe was an emergency stop, right? In order for the rear wheel to hop like you describe you must have had the clutch out. I was always taught that if you're in a panic stop situation you pull the clutch and use maximum braking. They also taught us that if the rear locks leave it locked until you come to a complete stop. Unless you're in a corner of course, I think that goes without saying. If you pull the clutch and hit the brakes, you may still lock the rear but it won't hop it'll just slide, which won't upset the chassis quite as much. 

By Crmc33 on Tuesday, October 22, 2002 - 11:52 pm:  View Crmc33's Profile Search for other posts by Crmc33 Edit this post

Ive found from experience on the track that using the rear before the front helps settle the bike when braking hard. Dont know the exact reason why this should be so, but I theorise that its something to do with the slight compression of the rear suspension helping to balance the heavy load/dive of the front suspension. This has the knock on effect of entering the corner in a more controlled way.
I should also mention that all of my competitive racing has been on classic bikes, (and two-strokes at that - with no engine braking) which generally dont have the bite or ease of use of modern brake setups. In some ways Ive found that poorly equipped bikes (brake wise) seem to corner better than bikes with more brake power. I think this is due to the suspension having to cope with less extreme forces and hence the bike behaves in a more settled manner midcorner. Hence, you can concentrate on going faster and being smooth rather than having to fight the bike. All my own observations of course, rather than 'the system which must be obeyed'!
As Bef mentioned, one thing that is apparently important during the transition between high speed braking and cornering is the way the brakes are let off. The smoother the better IMHO.
On the other hand, when applying the brakes, Ive always used them as hard as possible right from the first split-second of braking, making sure to use some back brake if possible. Some situations make it very difficult to move the bike onto the correct line, change gear, blip the throttle, wipe your visor. stick you knee out, wave to the crowd, pull a wheelie and use the front AND back brakes. Much simpler just to get me coat.

HTH someone! 

By Crmc33 on Tuesday, October 22, 2002 - 11:53 pm:  View Crmc33's Profile Search for other posts by Crmc33 Edit this post

Richandall,
how much rear suspension rebound damping and sag is dialled into your bike? This could answer your original question!  

By Geo on Wednesday, October 23, 2002 - 06:22 am:  View Geo's Profile Search for other posts by Geo Edit this post

I agree with Crm!! -a rare occurence for me to agree with anyone.

The other issue is downshifting.
Blipping the throttle, matching the revs etc is an art that's well worth practicing. The 'prilia is a LOT more forgiving for that than other big twins, you don't notice it until you switch bike -but your clutch may...

There are *huge* differences between the track and the street:
At the track your moves are expected and rehearsed, you're not looking to stop but to slow down, conserve the most energy and the revs ready to power out.
On the street you only need to hit the binders hard when you've been surprised, and you need to STOP.

My advice for the street is blip to your hearts content in normal riding but when you have an emergency stop forget all that and concentrate on using just the brakes -don't forget to clutch in at some point.
You're trying to STOP and for that nothing works better than the brakes.
Downshift later, when you have the time.
I've seen too many time riders release on the front brakes to blip the throttle, or pick speed because they used too much of it.
Besides it takes a lot of concentration to focus fully on matching the revs at the rear AND on the front traction (which is critical) at the same time -although fun to do when it's NOT an emergency.
I use the engine brake practically all the time, but I stop in a shorter distance when I don't.
(expert riders please feel free to ignore my rantings )  

By Benw on Wednesday, October 23, 2002 - 06:37 am:  View Benw's Profile Search for other posts by Benw Edit this post

What's wrong with blipping the throttle whilst braking? They aren't mutually exclusive events!

I can stop fastest when applying front & rear brakes and also adding engine braking in the form of downchanging with throttle blips.

B  

By Geo on Wednesday, October 23, 2002 - 06:54 am:  View Geo's Profile Search for other posts by Geo Edit this post

>>What's wrong with blipping the throttle whilst braking?>>

I didn't exactly say "don't" did I? I said I do it all time!...but that in an emergency it can screw you up...and that if you're that good a rider you won't be getting advice from the net.

>>I can stop fastest when applying front & rear brakes>>

Unless your rear brake is utter crap and unable to lock the rear wheel I don't see why that would be true. You only got some much traction available and once you've exceeded it nothing more will help.
Now if you tend to lock the rear under braking then using the engine may force the wheel to keep rolling, but that's rather complicated and only means that you were doing something wrong in the first place.  

By Crmc33 on Wednesday, October 23, 2002 - 06:54 am:  View Crmc33's Profile Search for other posts by Crmc33 Edit this post

BLIP BLIP BLIP BLIP BLIP BLIP BLIP BLIP BLIP BLIP BLIP BLIP BLIP BLIP BLIP BLIP BLIP BLIP BLIP BLIP BLIP BLIP BLIP BLIP BLIP BLIP BLIP BLIP BLIP BLIP BLIP BLIP BLIP BLIP BLIP BLIP BLIP BLIP BLIP BLIP BLIP BLIP BURP
This is blipping ridiculous! 

By Benw on Wednesday, October 23, 2002 - 07:03 am:  View Benw's Profile Search for other posts by Benw Edit this post

Ok, when racing , my rear wheel is normally in the air waggling round, hopping and skipping - whilst the front is skipping and the tyre chirping but that isn't the scenario we're looking at.

The rear brake on the back of my falco isn't particularly good. I prefer to let the engine braking slow the rear down, in conjunction with the rear brake. Just using the rear brake and pullling the clutch in is a sure-fire way to lock up the rear, especially in the wet!

B  

By Dave on Wednesday, October 23, 2002 - 07:19 am:  View Dave's Profile Search for other posts by Dave Edit this post

I reckon there should be little difference between how you brake hard for a bend while out hooning, and what you do for an emergency stop - in dry of course. After all its your most practiced technique. Forget making the technique used in emergency stops something out of the ordanary, its a refinement of your hard braking technique! The difference is its sudden and your not interested in touching the clutch or gears till the emergency is over. While out enjoying yourself, and warmed up, throw in a few practice emergency stops. Brake as normal, think 'emergency' and yank em in, and also think 'no clutch', and don't touch it till you've almost stopped. If you normally use the back, use it. If you don't normally use the back, would it make sence to try and develop the automatic emergency technique with it? That means your head may get confused when the emergency does happen to come up - it'll be so busy trying to decide whether to use the back or not that you'll pull the cluch and twist the grip by mistake, jump on the back and lock it and wake up sometime next week in a strange bed.

Don't know about you guys but I have a totally different 'head' on in the wet so no problem with dry responces clicking in at the wrong time. Again, wet emergency follows the normal wet braking technique. In my case that means that as well as the obligitory 2 fingers covering the front, my right foot position is dependent on my perception of the conditions - if I feel vulnerable the foot moves to cover the pedal. This being a semi concious action I am constantly subconciously reminding myself () that conditions are bad and that braking will be done that way, not the other. But on saying that, in some conditions I would still only use the front - depends again on perception.

One final thing, if you read the conditions well enough, and ride sensibly according to the conditions, you will have less need for emergency stops. See, I can sound like an old fart too <shudders at the thought> 

By Geo on Wednesday, October 23, 2002 - 07:19 am:  View Geo's Profile Search for other posts by Geo Edit this post

Ah, yeah in that case you're absolutely right.
You're not exactly a newbie, are ya?

I tried the 00 Mille and that rear brake was crap too, makes a big difference.
I have a 01 Mille and it's pretty good, my last few bikes had decent rear binders. If they didn't I'd think that I would try to correct that (pads, bleeding, position of brake pedal).
I can't imagine riding in the city without a good rear brake (or front ones for that matter, duh!)  

By Geo on Wednesday, October 23, 2002 - 07:30 am:  View Geo's Profile Search for other posts by Geo Edit this post

Hu my last remark (about being right) was adressed to BenW.

As for Dave:
why not learn to use the rear regularly, especially if it's a newbie ?
I think that the first few years you should try to do it the hu..."correct" way.
Of course when one's has lot of experience (like a lot of riders here do) whatever works for them is right.  

By Twowheels78 on Wednesday, October 23, 2002 - 07:31 am:  View Twowheels78's Profile Search for other posts by Twowheels78 Edit this post

BenW - you're a bit more experienced then most of us, including me. I for one have never been to a track, hoping to change that soon but not anymore this year. Geo is right, trying to use the front and rear brake while blipping the throttle and downshifting all while manageing available traction is a lot to ask from most novice riders and even some experienced ones. Track and street riding are a little bit different, things you can get away with on the track you wouldn't be able to on the street. And you're still ignoring the fact that this is a panic stop situation. If I need to stop and stop now, I pull the clutch and use max braking front and rear. Different strokes for different folks Is there a right way to do it? Everybody has their own opinion and will tell you something different. Use whatever works for you! 

By Benw on Wednesday, October 23, 2002 - 07:38 am:  View Benw's Profile Search for other posts by Benw Edit this post

Blip! Blip!  

By Geo on Wednesday, October 23, 2002 - 07:52 am:  View Geo's Profile Search for other posts by Geo Edit this post

Hu, O-O 78...I think that I'd try to brake first and clutch sometime later, not at the same time.
If you're in gear and off the throttle you get both rear wheel brake and spinning inertia too so you're not as likely to lock the rear either.
If you pay attention you'll know exactly when to clutch because you'll feel the rear fighting you.
It depends on what RPMs you were at when you shut the throttle, if it was high then the need for clutching will be sooner, but if it was mid rpms then you got plenty of time.  

By Twowheels78 on Wednesday, October 23, 2002 - 08:12 am:  View Twowheels78's Profile Search for other posts by Twowheels78 Edit this post

Well, like I said different strokes for different folks. I've had several close calls with cages and I've managed to avoid all of them using the above mentioned technique. Will it work for everyone, no probably not, but it works for me. I'm still here aren't I? Despite the cage drivers best attempts 

By Geo on Wednesday, October 23, 2002 - 08:19 am:  View Geo's Profile Search for other posts by Geo Edit this post

Ah good one, negative proof : it didn't happen therefore it worked!
I have a better one for you, try it (delayed clutch) and tell us how you liked it...hu I don't mean in an emergency, that's no time to "try" new things.
You game?  

By Twowheels78 on Wednesday, October 23, 2002 - 08:39 am:  View Twowheels78's Profile Search for other posts by Twowheels78 Edit this post

Geo, I'm not trying to argue with you here. All I said is that it works, I didn't say it was the only way or the best way, just that it works. There are a myriad of ways to do everything and everybody will tell you their way is the correct way. And while it may work for one person it may not for another, but that doesn't mean it's the wrong way. If it works then use it.

Sure, I'm game, I'll try it and let you know how it works.  

By Geo on Wednesday, October 23, 2002 - 08:52 am:  View Geo's Profile Search for other posts by Geo Edit this post

>>Geo, I'm not trying to argue with you here>>

Hu, I didn't that think you were!
(Note to self : use the damn emoticons!!)
{ clipart- banging my own head}  

By Befbever on Wednesday, October 23, 2002 - 10:23 am:  View Befbever's Profile Search for other posts by Befbever Edit this post


Rich said, after my first post: best braking advice I ever had. Didn't you lot read that?

All joking aside, I've tried the rear brake thing today in the wet and it doesn't work for me. Maybe my puny little brain can't handle reading the road conditions and pressing one more lever at the same time, but there you go.

So Rich, the way to learn how to brake is listen to me () and practice, as Dave and Crmc said. The best way to avoid obstacles is to go around them. And if you remember my motto: 'Never ever panic', things'll work out fine.

BenW,


Quote:

Ok, when racing , my rear wheel is normally in the air waggling round, hopping and skipping - whilst the front is skipping and the tyre chirping



Thank God, I thought there was something wrong with me.

Btw, my rear brake works so well a lot of Falconeers wouldn't believe it. 

By Twowheels78 on Wednesday, October 23, 2002 - 10:37 am:  View Twowheels78's Profile Search for other posts by Twowheels78 Edit this post

Sorry Geo it's so hard to tell what people mean in e-mail and such. Webhamster can we get some clipart for that, banging the head that is. I could have used that on a couple of occasions too

Anyway I went for a ride during lunch and froze my arse off, can I say arse on here? Delayed clutch works too, although I never doubted that it wouldn't. Does it work better? I don't know, without instrumented back to back tests it's hard to tell. Is it going to change how I ride? Probably not, I'm to damn stubborn to change


Quote:

There are a myriad of ways to do everything and everybody will tell you their way is the correct way. And while it may work for one person it may not for another, but that doesn't mean it's the wrong way. If it works then use it.


 

By Litre1 on Wednesday, October 23, 2002 - 10:45 am:  View Litre1's Profile Search for other posts by Litre1 Edit this post

Speaking of obstacles, I had to do a bit of maneuvering Saturday when a ca* pulled out in front of me! I was expecting him to do it, and since he was not in a hurry, I calmly pulled the shite out of the throttle and blew by him. Unfortunately, the Jeep Grand Cherokee in front of me was braking so he could see the certain carnage in his mirror! 25mph to ~60 to 5 will definitely test the brakes, and your temper! The brakes work well, though. And if I recall correctly, I used every brake I had! No wheelie, no stoppie, just a very controlled throttle up, throttle off, clutch in, downshift into 2nd, front brake (yep, I see I'll need a little rear), rear brake, clutch out, still braking, clutch in, downshift into 1st, release brakes, view car in left mirror, throw left hand up in disgust at both of them, and get over it--all in a matter of 2 seconds! Yep, it pays to not panic!

I'm sure most of you guys have had far more traumatic experiences than I have, but seeing as how I have just less than 10,000 miles total riding experience, I was pretty proud of the way I handled it. I wonder what the scene would have been like if I was still riding my Vmax!?! I bought the Falco for better handling and grip, and I got them. But I also got some damn good brakes!  

By Befbever on Wednesday, October 23, 2002 - 11:53 am:  View Befbever's Profile Search for other posts by Befbever Edit this post


Hmmm...
Came round a blind bend in the city where I live, doing approx. 70 mph when behind the bend was a car that had backed out of a parking space. He was blocking the road completely.

I hit the brakes, then hit the car. Flew about 10 meters and landed and rolled for another 30 meters. My helmet, which I never strapped on, flew and bounced more than double that distance. My bike was half the size it used to be. I was unhurt.

I bought a used chassis and the week after that, I was on the rebuilt bike when I had to brake in the wet. This time I had adjusted the drum brake so it would work better. But I was going way too fast again. I fell off and slid accross the tarmac. This time I drew blood.

I was 17. 

By Geo on Wednesday, October 23, 2002 - 12:37 pm:  View Geo's Profile Search for other posts by Geo Edit this post

Litre 1 commented:
"I'm sure most of you guys have had far more traumatic experiences"

Ha, it doesn't get traumatic until you end up in trauma center at the hospital!.....come to think of it, yes (sigh)wanna see the scars?

Befbever:
You flew 32ft, rolled for 98ft and didn't get hurt? I'd like to hear your fishing stories someday!
Same thing happened to me, borrowed a friend bike and he forgot to mention that he had started to bleed the front brakes and the lines were still open. At the first intersection a car turns in front of me and I had to watch two jets of brake fluid doing the "mannekinpiss"..hit the car, flew over, rolled and got up unscathed!
Unbreakable I tell ya!
but I wasn't going anywhere near that fast.  

By Geo on Wednesday, October 23, 2002 - 12:48 pm:  View Geo's Profile Search for other posts by Geo Edit this post

So there you have the final advice for the newbie:
Some say 100% engine and 0% rear brake
Some say 100% rear brake and 0% engine
and some say a combination of both!
At least we agree on using the front brakes (the Hardley riders often don't).  

By Dave on Wednesday, October 23, 2002 - 07:52 pm:  View Dave's Profile Search for other posts by Dave Edit this post

And to explain in simple terms, applying the front brakes causes weight to transfer forward over the front wheel and the nose to dip. More weight over the front, so more friction against the ground, less likely to slip(in a straight line). As weight moves forward, the rear lightens and is more likely to slip if brake is applied or 'blips' accompanying downshifts arn't big enough - point of a blip is to get the revs up to match the new gear, the more accurate, and the smoother you are letting the clutch out the less likely the back is of loosing friction and stepping out. To stop the Back brake having the same or worse effect ie locking up the wheel completely(clutch out) - don't use it

Questions?

Oops did you say final

re BetterBiking, there's a forum on the main site of the same name where one can ask questions of some peeps who it would appear have actually proved their qualification to answer such questions, so if a person thought they needed more... 

By Crmc33 on Wednesday, October 23, 2002 - 11:09 pm:  View Crmc33's Profile Search for other posts by Crmc33 Edit this post

I think the idea of using a little rear brake first is to make the whole bike squat before hitting the front brakes hard.

Wheres Valentino and Alex when you need em eh?  

By Dave on Thursday, October 24, 2002 - 03:38 am:  View Dave's Profile Search for other posts by Dave Edit this post

Doh!  

By Dave on Thursday, October 24, 2002 - 03:40 am:  View Dave's Profile Search for other posts by Dave Edit this post

nobody understands me  

By Crmc33 on Thursday, October 24, 2002 - 04:09 am:  View Crmc33's Profile Search for other posts by Crmc33 Edit this post

I dont understand me 

By Richandall on Thursday, October 24, 2002 - 04:46 am:  View Richandall's Profile Search for other posts by Richandall Edit this post

I guess everyone who wants to has made a contribution and I'm fascinated by the different styles of braking described.

I wuz tort (in the 'don't try to chew gum and walk' school) in emergency to add a steady pressure on the rear brake while giving her a handful of front brake and forget the clutch/gears except to avoid stalling when stopped. But the old dog can still learn new tricks from the younger ones.

Seems I'm 'dabbing' too hard for my budding technique, plus it's time to look again at the front/rear suspension set up. Oh, and I need to use my body to reduce the effects of forward weight transfer in an emergency stop. I can handle that.

Btw I truly admire anyone who can gaze at the Grim Reaper while downchanging, neatly balancing throttle, clutch and gearbox against hand and foot braking without falling off and getting max deceleration all the while...

I couldn't. I can't even brake smoothly and blip down through the box while gazing at a mile of open road - the braking somehow stops while the throttle blips giving an unsettling rocking-horse effect. But blipping without brakes, to use engine braking to slow down, that's an art with a twin and lends a big smile factor to the ride.

Let this splendid debate flow on forever!

- Rich  

By Geo on Thursday, October 24, 2002 - 07:05 am:  View Geo's Profile Search for other posts by Geo Edit this post

Don't worry Richandall the debate ain't over!

Dave:
The weight transfer forward is what you want to delay and minimise (unless you're stoppie wizard who can do it on a greasy road in a emergency).
-It is true that loading the front end will cause its contact patch to get a little wider and make it grip better (up to a point)
-It is all too true that as the cg moves forward it unloads the rear to the point that there's no more grip.

BUT: there's no reason to hasten that process by completely ignoring the rear and whatever little traction is available. At least not at the start of the braking process - even if it's only for a second.
If you think that the front diving is actually beneficial for braking try a set of really weak springs in your forks and see that helps (not!).
-All things being equal bikes equiped with stiffer springs stop a lot better than the ones with soft front ends.
Settling down the suspension helps reduce dive.

Finally I mentioned earlier that IMO "control is more important that max stopping", what I meant is retaining the capacity to steer the bike while braking.
Not too many riders can steer on one wheel!
(Please note that this discussion is about panic stops on the street and not fast laps).

Another aside: in the USA, the MSF advocates clutch in first. In Japan where the riding tests are infinitely more stringent the say to leave the clutch for last, right before you stall.  

By Befbever on Thursday, October 24, 2002 - 07:27 am:  View Befbever's Profile Search for other posts by Befbever Edit this post


OK, tried it in the dry as well. And it's been a long time since I had a call this close! steaming

Got off the motorway as usual, when I hit second gear I gave full throttle, as usual. Handlebars weaving, front not touching any tarmac - as usual. Then hit the brakes to turn left, concentrating on the rear brake but obviously not braking hard enough with the front.
When some silly cow only decides she and her VW can cross the dual carriageway, completely ignoring the bugger on the bike that's trying to get it stopped in time! Front AND rear wheel locking and grinding to a halt 10 cm from her door. Pushed the horn, blipped the throttle (Rene's) but do you think she noticed me even then? Deaf, dumb AND blind indeed! grrrr!

I decided to leave it be (what's the use?) and break my record getting home from there just to work off the frustration. It worked, but this is the last time I listen to Geo!

Btw, in the accident mentioned a few posts ago, I was wearing only jeans, no gloves or boots and I didn't have a scratch! 

By Geo on Thursday, October 24, 2002 - 08:14 am:  View Geo's Profile Search for other posts by Geo Edit this post

Hey Beff, you stopped didn't you!
Front and rear chattering and locking and still in control? Beautifull!
Seriously I'm glad you didn't get hurt.

I don't think that it's my fault you didn't use *more* front brake.
You've been riding for a long time (23 yrs?)and have pretty well mastered a style that you're comfortable with. That makes it very difficult to compare it fairly against a different technique.
Which does not mean that someone with a lot less experience can't benefit from it.
To quote Richandall:
"I can't even brake smoothly and blip down - the braking somehow stops while the throttle blips giving an unsettling rocking-horse effect".
I still think that he should stick to using the rear brake and clutching, at least for the next couple of years.
Don't you?  

By Richandall on Thursday, October 24, 2002 - 08:23 am:  View Richandall's Profile Search for other posts by Richandall Edit this post

Bef, how many lives is that, then?

Heard on the news today that 34% of people are carrying a parasite that breeds only in cats. In rats it causes increased risk-taking behaviour while also increasing their curiousity towards cats. Which naturally allows the parasite to complete it's reproductive cycle inside the cat!

Question is, Do you keep cats? Was there a cat in the car? Did the driver like cats? Are you a rat-lover?
The questions are endless.

- Rich


Btw in the French it's a 74% frequency because they (no, it's not because they eat rats or are rats or **** rats) like uncooked meat... 

By Richandall on Thursday, October 24, 2002 - 08:48 am:  View Richandall's Profile Search for other posts by Richandall Edit this post

Geo - I don't think Bef is laying his near hit at your doorstep. After all,


Quote:

when I hit second gear I gave full throttle, as usual. Handlebars weaving, front not touching any tarmac - as usual



hardly sounds like a controlled braking experiment...

My inability to brake hard while blipping for accurate downchanges is down to no interest in racing. But it's maybe a cool thing to be able to do so I'll try it out on the road til I get it right. But the back brake will continue to get a tiny dab now & then, to keep the discs from rusting away.

- Rich 

By Geo on Thursday, October 24, 2002 - 08:59 am:  View Geo's Profile Search for other posts by Geo Edit this post

"My inability to brake hard while blipping for accurate downchanges is down to no interest in racing."

Not, just lack of practice. It takes a lot of it to get them just right on a big-twin....and even longer for it to become second nature, especially in an emergency.  

By Befbever on Thursday, October 24, 2002 - 10:12 am:  View Befbever's Profile Search for other posts by Befbever Edit this post


Rich,
I do have a cat. I love cats, they're my favourite animal.
There might have been a Garfield stuck to that car window. If it would have been the window I came closest to, be sure I would know for sure!

Geo,
the only reason I did stop is because I rely on my own experience and I don't ever panic. Panic is the worst councelor on a bike, fear comes a close second. And I wasn't exaggerating when I said the front locked too.

This particular stretch of road is well suited to keep the braking technique well-oiled. I can just brake late enough so the front tyre starts to lose adhesion and there's still some run-off should I require it. There can be a bit of gravel on the surface sometimes. I didn't use enough front brake because I was trying to concentrate on the right dosage of rear brake.

This has been the perfect example of the stuff that can happen if there's not enough attention for those other morons on the road. As I said, this doesn't happen to me often because I watch all these f*ckers very carefully. Usually.  

By Richandall on Friday, October 25, 2002 - 08:54 am:  View Richandall's Profile Search for other posts by Richandall Edit this post

Bef, you've definitely used up ten of your nine lives.

I'm off to Turkey this weekend for a spot of cultural hobnobbing.

Do they eat cats there? I'll let y'all know!

- Rich

 

By Befbever on Friday, October 25, 2002 - 10:09 am:  View Befbever's Profile Search for other posts by Befbever Edit this post


Turkey for the weekend, oh dear, I can't even manage Blighty for the weekend .

If they do eat cats, don't let me know!

Re: the nine lives, I didn't mean to sound macho or anything Rich. Any experienced biker will tell you that although they may sound like they've been there, done that, they still get surprised sometimes.

Have a nice weekend!
 

By Geo on Friday, October 25, 2002 - 11:50 am:  View Geo's Profile Search for other posts by Geo Edit this post

Been there done that too many times.
I kick myself in the arse every time that I get surprised.
Well I would if I could.  

By Crmc33 on Friday, October 25, 2002 - 01:33 pm:  View Crmc33's Profile Search for other posts by Crmc33 Edit this post

I'm back in blighty tomorrow, do they still drive on the left?

I'll soon find out. 


Add a Message


This is a private posting area. A valid username and password combination is required to post messages to this discussion.
Username:  
Password:

< <  back to previous page

Administrator's Control Panel -- Board Moderators Only
Administer Page | Delete Conversation | Close Conversation | Move Conversation