| By Morph on Monday, September 02, 2002 - 05:07 am: |
I'm new to this forum, but judging from the conversations going on, you may find this interesting.
I'm currently racing with Bemsee in the SuperTwins class on a 2001 RSVR. My bike has a Power Commander III and a G Froce can on it at the moment and the power curve is certainly nothing to write home about, but it had got me a few good results and a couple of trophies that sit on the shelf. I'd read all about these Renegade airbox kits and cans and so decided to try them out.
Mental Trev and Jorge sent me the kit which I bolted on and ran it up on a dyno, only to find I'd lost something like 8bhp at the rear wheel. We didn't have time to get into it in any more detail as we were supposed to be running at Brands Hatch at the weekend, so I took it off again and left it in the garage with the intention of sorting it out later on.
Whilst in the garage on the test day, Trev and Jorge appeared in the garage asking how it was going and were disappointed that I'd removed it again and even more disappointed when they heard the reason why. They asked me to bring my bike into their workshop at the end of the day so they could understand the reasons why.
What followed was basically the BEST customer service I've experienced in a long, long time. Jorge had my bike on the dyno for about 5 hours that evening at no cost and by the end of it had found another 18bhp and the smoothest power curve I've ever seen just using his airbox, can and a chip... I couldn't believe how animated and passionate he was about getting it right, but the dyno chart speaks for itself. They stuck another airbox on it as I had left mine at home saying "just send us the other one back". They hand made me a race can that night once they knew which can worked best and even turned up back at the track for our races to see how we did.
If value for money and great customer service is the mark of a good supplier, these boys are great. I'm seriously impressed with both them and their product and look forward to working with them in future.
If you've got an RSVR, try the Renegade bits. You can't help but be impressed with the results and it's the cheapest power increase with a very smooth power curve I've come across in a long time.
later
Morph...
| By Taffrsv on Monday, September 02, 2002 - 05:57 am: |
What where the reasons for the loss of 8 bhp when you fitted the airkit, the reason I ask is that I've just put my bike back to std for some warranty work to be done, when I removed my airkit I could not tell any difference, in fact I think it could be slightly better and a lot bloody quiter, the only figures I have to compare with are using the RSC chip, and the airkit improved that, but now I'm using the std chip.
That does sound like good service, well done Rene.
Taff.
| By Webhamster on Monday, September 02, 2002 - 06:11 am: |
I understand the problem was the PowerCommander - which was 'fighting' with the bikes ECU and delivering incorrect settings.
Ditch the PC, let the ECU and the airkit do their jobs and believe me you'll notice the difference. In this instance Morph also went for the Renegade exhaust and chip for even more power.
How do I know this? I went to Brands on Sunday to watch the racing too. When Jorge found out I was there he invited me into the paddock and I spent a highly enjoyable afternoon chatting to the riders and watching some great racing. Fabulous results for the Renegade equipped machines I might add, well done lads!
| By Diablo_Mille_R on Monday, September 02, 2002 - 06:35 am: |
A poorly set up Powercommander will always work poorly, a well set up one will outperform most if not all chips. I'd like to see someone put a chip in mine and get +18bhp
If they can I'll buy 10! hmmmm 145bhp from can, chip and airkit, yes please.
| By Powermaster on Monday, September 02, 2002 - 08:09 am: |
Rich, you are just twisting the subject around, what Simon is saying has nothing to do with the PC but what we achieved with a lot of hard work, When Simon, fitted the airkit, the pc had been set to it's baseline setting, the moment an alteration was made, the pc should have been remaped for optimum results, but it wasn't, hence the loss of power, when the bike came to us, we did a baseline run and another without the PC. It's with the latter that we did our work, if however Simon has his PC set up again with the new changes, He may or may not get better results.
The point here is that without the PC connected, the ECU will always adjust to changes whereas the PC will not, except but feed the ECU with it's own mapping commands.
What is a well set up program? I have a lot of respect for the person who set Simon's PC.
All I can offer is my services to show you what I mean, also would be very interesting to see the power that your bike has? You know that I love Aprilias and to test such well tuned bike is pure excitement.
Or do it independentely. Do a run with the PC, remove your airbox lid and do another run, see the results.
Disconnect the PC do another run and see what happens.
| By Mr_Venjer on Monday, September 02, 2002 - 09:11 am: |
I was going to try the PCIII but it seems that I am better off with the chip I have. If the PCIII is not flexible enough to adjust to changes why are people spending such large amounts of dosh on it ?
I understand that a custom map for a bike is only optimal for the conditions on that day at that time. Does this mean a map done in the winter will be pointless for summer use and vice versa ??
Kevin
| By Powermaster on Monday, September 02, 2002 - 11:09 am: |
Maybe a better explanation here
and here
| By Taffrsv on Monday, September 02, 2002 - 11:19 am: |
"here" is not working
Taff.
| By Powermaster on Monday, September 02, 2002 - 11:25 am: |
Taff, you are too fast for me,
Try again
| By Tlrjsp on Monday, September 02, 2002 - 01:00 pm: |
Jorge,
Are you saying you reprogrammed the stock ecu?
| By Diablo_Mille_R on Tuesday, September 03, 2002 - 01:05 am: |
Quote:I understand the problem was the PowerCommander - which was 'fighting' with the bikes ECU and delivering incorrect settings.
Quote:Or do it independentely. Do a run with the PC, remove your airbox lid and do another run, see the results.
I've got the rene airkit of course! Plus 5rwbhp from zero map to custom map though on the PC3!
| By Morph on Tuesday, September 03, 2002 - 02:35 am: |
I've written an article on the work done by Renegade on Friday night which also has the dyno graphs etc. You should be able to see the difference in power and delivery as we tried different things during the night.
The article can be found on the Mojo Racing website - http://www.mojo.org.uk/ It's linked from the front page.
Maybe it will explain things in more detail.
later
Morph...
| By Crmc33 on Tuesday, September 03, 2002 - 02:56 am: |
Why is it that since I put a pair of Amal GP's on the Falco that Ive gained 10HP? 
I think youre all wrong. The McCain '1-2-3-Frites' chip is the best.
...and no mayo required!
Seriously tho for a nanosecond, IMHO, Morph's report shows that changing the chip was the simplest option. The PCIII was causing confusion cos it was just another unknown variable affecting the fueling especially post airkitment. Jorge has enough experience with the Aprilias whether it be EFI or exhausts, not to need the PCIII in Morph's case. It doesnt mean that the PCIII isnt a useful tool.
Obviously, the bike was on the dyno at Renegade and Jorge had a number of chip options (which he knows well) at his fingertips (it only takes one finger to operate the magic button), then its simpler and quicker to just change the chip without the PCIII connected.
Sometimes simpler is better!
...Told you the Amals were the way forward!
| By Powermaster on Tuesday, September 03, 2002 - 12:32 pm: |
Rich, I make exhausts, airkits, etc. Not PCs, so I could care less what people get, what I care is, a client saying that he lost 8HP by fitting one of our products. The reason? He had a PC fitted and no one to set it up to the changes. You are correct on what you are saying but you fail to explain what is it that the PC does. In fact I feel that to those who do not understand how it works, you are making it sound too wonderfull. Those that I have talked to, have the impression that the PC adjusts to different situations or set up changes, just like the ECU does, does it? Maybe I have been fed the same rubbish as Hammy
| By Diablo_Mille_R on Tuesday, September 03, 2002 - 11:23 pm: |
Maybe I'm wasting my breath here but I'll give it a go....
I've explained what a PC3 does, it takes the original signal from the ECU to the injectors and either lengthens or shortens it depending on the values mapped into it for each throttle position and rev. Nothing more, nothing less. The PC3 does not need to adjust to different situations as the ECU is already doing that for it Simple, but effective.
BUT it is only as good as the map in it. I'm waiting to put my PC3 up against some chips in Mr Venjers dyno day shootout and then we can all see how good they compare. Don't have a cow though, I understand you need to sell pipes/airkits/chips to live and that is what you do. If you don't want dynojet products praised on your forum say so and I'll just stay quiet.
| By Hansie on Wednesday, September 04, 2002 - 01:12 am: |
I think youre right with the working of the PC3 but I cant see why its better than a (cheaper) chip.They both depend on the software in it.
The ecu in our Aprilia's is one of the best you can get, I think better as a PC3 is. So I dont see the reason adding a "thing" wich is not better than stock. Offcourse its diffecult getting a good chip .Diffecult to compare and whats good for youre Mille could be not so good for my Falco , but thats the same with youre software on youre PC3. Its far to diffecult to change/write it yourself esspecialy without a dyno.
I think the problem is that in other bikes (without a decent ecu) the PC3 works great but it isnt needed for Aprilia's.
Hansie
| By Powermaster on Wednesday, September 04, 2002 - 01:22 am: |
BIG MISTAKE... HUUUUUGE! (Julia Roberts in "Pretty Woman", anyone?
Quote:I understand you need to sell pipes/airkits/chips
) Exactly the point I am trying to make, and I had hoped that you and others familiar with the product would explain to those who think that it adjusts.
Quote:The PC3 does not need to adjust to different situations as the ECU is already doing that for it
Quote:BUT it is only as good as the map in it
Quote:BUT it is only as good as the map in it
(Sorry, I can't help myself... I just can't say it enough!)
Quote:BUT it is only as good as the map in it
Uh-oh, we're on thin ice, here again... I can see exactly where this might lead if I don't choose my words very carefully in responding to that.
Quote:If you don't want dynojet products praised on your forum say so and I'll just stay quiet
| By Diablo_Mille_R on Wednesday, September 04, 2002 - 01:31 am: |
Quote:You still did not answer my question - what happens when you change some component of the bike's set up... the can, the airbox, or the air filter, for example? Will the mapping still be at it's "optimum", then?
| By Powermaster on Wednesday, September 04, 2002 - 01:41 am: |
Are you kidding, I have 3 in my office and Mental Trev as a back up
| By Crmc33 on Wednesday, September 04, 2002 - 01:51 am: |
Yes but Mental Trev version 1.4 is now obsolete. Mentral Trev version 2.1 is now available ($15.99 incl P/P) and the graphics are much improved (altho the voice output is still a bit edgy). Experience also has shown that there may be a clash between Mental Trev Version 1 and TaffsRSV version 6.1 which requires the Jorge 2002 patch to fix.
I contacted Dynojet about this problem and they said
Quote:Bollox, just fit some carbs
| By Powermaster on Wednesday, September 04, 2002 - 02:18 am: |
You missing the most updated version, Mayo 7.2
I better get my coat too
Oi, no Derail 
| By Befbever on Wednesday, September 04, 2002 - 02:56 am: |
What's this RSV thing you're on about?
Is it any good?
Do I need to buy a PC or go for a Mac?
Does Jorge know who Julia Roberts is?
If I buy an exhaust, where do these free chips come from? A British chip shop?
Will they still be warm when they get here?
Are they salted from factory?
Do they come with vinegar?
Will this affect the performance?
Why do you guys always derail a thread by mentioning mayo?
| By Crmc33 on Wednesday, September 04, 2002 - 04:28 am: |
Whats RSV?!....Ready Salted, Vinegar added stupid!
I think this almost answers all your questions Beth
Computers? Go for a BigMac
Remember the SP version has chips with Sauce and Peas which is always worth the extra in my eyes (altho it does sting a bit).
Ive used the get my coat emoticon so much now I need a more serious one. Please generate a {getmecoatandhandbag} emoticon
BTW, I heard Julia Roberts is Kenny's daughter. and yes, she would seriously affect my performance.
| By Befbever on Wednesday, September 04, 2002 - 04:51 am: |
No such luck, perhaps this will do? 
No prizes for guessing who could use this one 
| By Webhamster on Wednesday, September 04, 2002 - 07:24 am: |
So, anyone here work for PC or Dynojet?
I reckon I should get them to add their sponsorship to the site - do you think they'd get 'stuck in' like Renegade do?
| By Racerxlilbro on Wednesday, September 04, 2002 - 10:03 am: |
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